A big curiousity

Question
QUESTION: Hi Christopher,
I have two questions that I cannot find a very detailed answer with anyone I have asked so far, so I will try here.
1) if optional claiming races are optional to put up for a tag, and the only conditions do not have to do with the money value of the horses themselves (rather to do with nw1$_x, 2$, and so on..) then how do you know if the value of an optional claimer 80k is really all that much different in horse class/value than an optional claimer 25k? It doesn't seem to be shown anywhere in the description of the race what value any of the horses are. In different words, shouldn't an oc25k be of equal value with an oc80k if no horse is up for sale (both races are an nw1$_x lets say)? Why would an oc80k be any harder if all have to do with non winner of such and such money other than claiming maiden or starter?

(whew) 2) which is more competitive a maiden stakes or a maiden special weight? I'm guessing it is the same concept as amongst winners, the allowance/oc comparing to stakes races. Since Stakes races are more of a pot and have no conditions, and are an upper division than allowances/oc's, they would be the harder of the these two comparisons . So in different words, a maiden special weight is higher than a regular price tag maiden since the entrants are not up for sale...fair enough.. A maiden stakes seems higher with the previous description but it seems purses are not but I wonder if it is a small scope of talent. Would it be considered that most stakes races are just a fancy name for 'another maiden special weight' with the exception that if your horse wins, you collect nice money, but the horse is still in the maidens. I hope these questions are descriptive enough and that you can finally satisfy what I have been trying to figure out for a while.

Pat

ANSWER: The claiming prices are directly related to the purse money offered. If you are looking to make money off your newly claimed horse, it isn't smart to claim for 80k then run back for a 12k allowance purse unless you are looking to dump the horse off and maybe steel an easy win at another track who offers these less competitive allowance optional claiming races. There is no point in having an optional claiming tag of 80k when the purse offering for that race is 12k. No one in their right mind would buy a horse for that much when there is no value in winning that race. An allowance race offering an 80k purse will most likely, but not necessarily be much harder to win than an allowance race, with the same conditions, offering a 12k purse. Some tracks like Woodbine have what is called "B Allowance". This allows the trainers to give their horse a better shot in allowance company, but offer a lesser purse while avoiding the claiming ranks. This race should be easier, but again, not necessarily.
It all comes down to if you have a really nice horse, you are going to run him where the best purses are and the highest claiming prices to avoid the claim or even get a high amount if he is claimed. The horse will show his value in how he performs.

A Maiden Stakes "should" be tougher than a Maiden Special Weight race because a stakes race requires the entrants to put up money to enter and run the race. This weeds out the less serious participants who are not willing to put up the cash to run. This doesn't always draw the best horses, but there are sometimes other eligibility requirements such as earnings or number of wins that will draw the best possible field of eligible horses who pay to play.

You can run a maiden in a stakes race, but can't run a winner in a maiden stakes. Once a horse wins a race, he is no longer eligible to run in maiden races of any kind. Maiden Special Weight is also known as Maiden Allowance. You may also see those races listed as just simply "Maiden" races. "Maiden Special Weight" refers to the assigned weight the horse must carry based on age.

I hope I answered your questions. If I didn't, then please follow up and I will do my best to get you the answers you need.

Chris

http://CrockerRacingStable.com

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Christopher (apologies on delaying back with this followup, I had caught a flu, and am better now),
The second answer was clear and well understood, excellent and thanks alot..
The first one I have some confusion and wonder if I could have asked it unclearly. Best way to ask you is simply to mention what I hadn't expected back as answer. In Southern Cal, the allowance and optional claiming races all have similar purses for about 40-60k (70's ehh at times) depending on which of the three tracks they are running on at any particular time of the year (I only play these). So I don't know what you mean by 80k tag running back to a 12k allowance. No allowances are that low and an 80k tag in an optional claimer is about equal in purse as an allowance, and no danger to lose the horse since they don't have to go up for sale if meeting the conditions. Also, I'm not meaning straight claiming races. I'm noticing that I should have been completely specific to the southern cal tracks of hollywood, santa anita, and del mar (and fairplex, but I really disregard that track mostly). So sorry for not mentioning that.

I appreciate the fact that you even chose to go into an explanation of my question. I either have gotten back answers of I really don't know, or something vague hinting to "oh there are subtle fine-print conditions always shown in the form, so just read those". I have, and it still leads back to me wondering, how is the value of horses in opt claimer races between oc80k and oc25k different if no entrants are up for sale? Why do most races run as if there is a difference (at times breaking that pattern, of course)? And how do these races compare with an allowance race? example: I have viewed for awhile that an allowance race seems in horse skill level somewhere between an oc40k to oc63k, taking note of appropriate difference of surface switch, distance switch, etc.. but I really am not sure, its just how it seems to appear.
I'll hope that you still would like to give a shot at clarifying this, and that you know that I appreciate all words that you say or however you answer.
Thanks so much for bearing with this message also,
Pat

ANSWER: I used such a low optional claiming price of 12k to make a point to the extreme. Allowance, Optional claiming prices can actually be lower around the country. Same applies for 25k. Not sure the purse structure of the California tracks, but I can almost bet you that the purse for the allowance optional claiming tag of 25k is much lower than the 80k claiming purse. It is all about what the owner or trainer thinks his horse is worth or capable of earning. If you are running for the allowance condition and not the claiming tag, then the purse will theoretically dictate the difficulty of the race. If you think your horse will be competitive in the higher priced allowance optional claiming 80k race for a 90k purse then you would not enter your horse against allowance optional 25k horses for a 30k purse. If you won the cheaper race then you would no longer be eligible to go back for the bigger money and if you thought your horse was good enough to win it then you would have poorly managed your horse and cost yourself thousands. You could although reenter the allowance optional 80k race for the tag, but if you were thinking this horse was on the rise and possibly a stakes horse then you would not likely offer this horse up for sale for even the 80k. Lets say you won the cheaper of the two allowance optional claiming races and you won it pulling away by 10 lengths against a pretty tough field..... You would be in danger of a claim of 80k if someone else recognised the potential talent of your horse. That is if you were not going to run for an allowance 2x. So you are correct in thinking these horses should be the same value if all running for the condition and not the claiming price. Value is defined by what one thinks a horse's potential earning could be in relation to a current sale price. A horse that is entered for the allowance condition will usually have more value than a horse entered for the claiming tag of that allowance optional claiming race since the horse in for the tag has already won the condition of the allowance part of the allowance optional claiming race. This gives the horse one less condition to be eligible for and lessens the value of the horse in most instances. Potential stakes horses on the rise may be able to slip through, unclaimed, as they become better horses as they mature physically and mentally. I hope I have answered your question better this time. Please follow up if I can help further. Sorry for the delay in my answer. We have been on the road a lot in the past few weeks.

Christopher Crocker

http://CrockerRacingStable.com

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Chris,
I understood most of the prior comparing, and your work in putting together words to exert further explanation is much better than other attempts given to me.

I will summarize lightly and put forth just a last lingering curiousity (thanks, whew, some factors I understand a little better). You mentioned quite a bit in the logistics of the advantage/disadvantages of what happens when entering horses and winning/not winning, then the ideas of reentrances in 2x's or putting up for a tag and it can result in things ranging from your entrant looking "too nice" for a buyer should it be given a tag, or lack of qualifying in another 1x and not wanting to enter a 2x, etc.. so carefulness of logistics, fair enough..

So only one thing I have curiousity about. Its similar to the original question but probably has a more precise emphasis in view of what you have answered. The 25k, 40k, 63k, and 80k optional allowance (and straight allowances too) --ARE-- all right around the same ranges of purses! arrgghh!! WHY?? (I've noticed this for years, and just scratch my head) They differ a little more in range at different tracks (but not much), and I'm guessing perhaps due to a slight difference of racetrack budget handling maybe?.. Its doesn't seem to be the horse values when --> All have jumbled averages of between 48-61k. By jumbled I mean there are both oc80k and oc25k on the lower end (both state the purse as 48k or 50k, these usually hollywood, and then the same oc80k's and oc25k (and between on the higher end being 58k or 60k (all claiming values arggh), often del mar or santa anita. (for an example of what i mean, check equibase entries (or even results after) for santa anita this friday march 9th races 6 and 7.

http://www.equibase.com/static/entry/SA030912USA-EQB.html   
 
Same purse value! $58k exactly! If thats the case, then hypothetically $80,000 horses can run in any of the opt clm value and collect the same reward provided they just don't go up for sale. Does an entrant just say, "I name this horse as this much worth". All other facets of your answer above have been nicely gleaned from, just this remains..

Ok, a small thought, do you get many handicappers asking such things this hairy and trying to wrap their head around it? I wonder if many handicapper know things in this much detail, and I'm somehow the dense one.

Thanks so much for your great perserverance (huff puff, whatever you say is gonna be the perspective I will muse upon a while),   :)
Pat

p.s. Delays can happen, and i appreciate that you even got to me with travel happening during these days. Hope to hear back of course as your roads permit.

Answer
As horses move through their conditions, races become tougher because you move on to race against horses advancing at the same levels you are. Horses, unless stakes horses, become less valuable as they lose lifetime conditions. This is because the eligibility requirements require the horse to run in tougher races which gives less immediate earning potential. If the horse wins allowance nw3x and can't seem to win ALW NW4x then the trainer would be smart in entering the horse back in an ALW NW3x Optional $ for the tag. So the purses tend to stabilize at the allowance levels. The horses should be awarded slightly more for their ability to win tougher allowance races, but at the same time are less valuable without conditions left. At this stage these horses usually must retreat into lower level open claiming races to continue to win if they are unable to compete against the other horses entering for the claiming tag. An optional allowance race can end up with all the horses entering for the tag with none eligible for the allowance condition. These races can be very difficult and force a drop in class to the horses who struggle to stay competitive here.

I have not had a lot of questions about the purses. When handicapping, I rarely look at the purse offerings and more at the conditions and if they suit the horses best shot of winning.

Christopher Crocker

http://CrockerRacingStable.com