more campy and cassettes

Question
QUESTION: Hi ...and thanks for answering my last question on chamois lanolin. I recently bought a Giant Tcr road bike with a dura ace derailleur and it appears a dura ace cassette ( at least the lock rim says dura-ace) . All of that is on Zipp wheels, so they are my racing wheels. I later then bought a cheaper training wheelset on ebay with a campy hub, no cassette....so apparently i need a campy cassette. Shimano cassettes won't work on campy hubs they tell me. True?  The dura-ace is a 10 speed.  What problems will I have with the click shifters changing from the training wheel campy cassette while training to the racing wheels with the 'dura ace' cassette?  Thanks and thanks for any suggestions regarding this. Jim

ANSWER: Hey Jim,

It sounds like you have a very nice bike! Unfortunately you have stumbled into the world of the Italy vs. Japan. There are a couple of possibilities here: A) Using a Campy cassette with your DA shifting will work just fine. 2) It won't. Unfortunately I think number 2 is the more likely possibility.

What will happen is your shifting will be off by just a little bit. You maybe able to up shift just fine but down shifting will give you a rattle and a jump and it will feel like it keeps hunting for a gear, which it is. The spacing between the two companies is off just a little bit so the shifts are off just a little bit. Frustrating huh?

There is a possibility that with the 10 speed the spacing difference will be so minor that it will work. I haven't tried it myself and since I am a Campy person I would be approaching this from the opposite side of the coin.

It used to be that you could get a spacing kit for Campy or Shimano to work on the opposite system. I haven't seen one for 10 speed, but I haven't really looked. It might be out there and worth inquiries.

Way back in the olden days, when racing wheels used to be fragile, it was very common to have racing wheels and training wheels. Now wheels are so tough, even though they are very light and minimally spoked, that many people train and race on the same set. As I am getting my road bike ready for the year I threw my Campy wheels in the truing stand and they are as true as the day that I bought them. I have yet to take a spoke wrench to them! I am not a light person (190 lbs - but I'm working on it!) and our roads here in Wisconsin get pretty bad frost cracks. You may just want to ride your Zipps for a while and see how the hold up. I think you will be pleased.

The down side to that, one set of wheels is the tires, f you run a light, high pressure, sticky racing tire you will be going through a lot more of them with just one set of wheels.

And lastly, be aware that if you do run training wheels and racing wheels it might not be a swap and go situation. The way the two cassettes line up on the wheels may require a bit of derailleur tweaking when you switch. This is even if you are using like cassettes and hubs.

Good luck!

Tad



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks for that last answer. 2 follow up questions if you don't mind. First let me explain a bit. I live in rural Idaho, close to the Canadian border. Few to ride with, few to ask questions to. I was a hotsy totsy in Northern California 40 years ago, yikes, but all the new equipment and training techniques are taking their time on the learning curve for me. So thanks again. 1) I have look pedals and bought a used pair of shoes with look cleats...the shoes and cleats are old but they worked in the 'Look' pedals, but they were quite loose perhaps because they were so worn?? or?. There are newer 'Look' cleats out, Keo...anyway you know of to tell the difference so I know if I have 'Keo' pedals and or 'Keo' cleats???   2) With the Zipp wheels I have, they need an 'extender' from the 'tube' since they don't protrude far enough to fill directly. The plastic extenders that came with the bike don't allow me to fill the tire as no air goes in so it's leaking somewhere. Any ideas how to solve such?  Thanks again...muchly appreciated. Jim

ANSWER: Jim,

I used to live in Montana's Bitterroot valley, I had a little bike shop there, and I raced in your neck of the woods a few times. When I think back on it, either side of the state lines from you in Montana and Washington, although I do recall a race in Northern Idaho... I think.

I have tried various types of tube extenders with moderate success, and nothing is more frustrating then inflating a tire only to have it go flat in a few minutes. What I finally started doing is buying the long valve tubes. They come in long, and extra long valves. I can't recall the length right off hand (50 and 70mm???) but they will make a world of difference and ease when inflating your tires. I have a feeling with the Zipp rims you will need the super long ones.

For now, with the extenders, make sure when you screw them on that they are not closing the Presta valve top back down. I have had that happen to me. The solution is to top the valve opening out firmly. Use a bit of caution as some valves can be unscrewed, although I haven't seen that in years.

From what I can remember, without having the Look cleats in my hand, the Keo's have a slimmer design to them... like Look cleats on a diet, yet with big hips. Having said that worn cleats, from any manufacturer, will behave just like you are describing - loose when engaged.

I know what it is like being far from a bike shop, I live in rural Wisconsin now and the bike shops in the closest town to me leave something to be desired, I do a lot of online shopping.So I guess what I am suggesting is doing a search for "Look cleats" and compare the pictures. I used to be notorious for running old cleats and getting really sloppy shoe/pedal connections. Buy new cleats, it is worth it.

One last thing about the Keo's and the old style Look pedals... I believe that the Keo cleats will engage in the old style pedals but not the other way around. The problem is the release point is not the same and disengaging could be a challenge. (In other words, best left to the kids who aren't afraid of falling!)

Good luck with all of this and don't worry about asking questions, I enjoy this!

Tad

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: So Tad...thanks again...i think sincei t doens't say keo anywhere on the pedal and the bike is about 6 years old then it is th standard. that's what i'm going to go for but two questions 1) since i have a campy hub receiver, it appears to slide off, though i haven't tried to do so...but if it comes off easily can a shimano receiver be put on and away with go with putting the cassettes together.....something tells me a campy hub is a different size than the shimano hub? true?""   I just sent my Schwinn Paramount to seattly to get the front forks straightened. In the morning they told me it wasn't going to be ridable because of the distortion that had occurred  at the crown, so meanwhile suspecting this might be true,  i had been following a 'dolan' track frame that was coming up to auction so i bought it on ebay. Later that afternoon the company that had my paramount called me back and told me that the boss had changed his mind because the materials were more robust than he'd thought and he 'bent' it back so now it'stotally 100% safe and 'ridable'. Even though i won the 5 mile north american championships on it in august of '69 at alpenrose dairy velodrome in portland, and there is 'some' sentimental value to it, i think for competitive sake, i'll be better off, lighter and faster with the df3 dolan frame i won on eaby.  I'll have both bikes in hand in a week, looking at one and then the other, trying to decide which way to go.....what would you do???

Answer
Hey Jim,

Let me take the easy one first... On the outside of the last cog on the cassette is a lock ring, it takes a special tool not unlike the freewheel tools of old, except it is much more shallow. When you get the cassette cogs off you will see that the freehub body (the ratcheting part of the hub) has splines cut in it. I think you can guess where I am going with this... yes, the splines are different between Campy and Shimano and no the two shall never meet. Yes, it was much easier in the good old freewheel days!

What I have never tried, however, is replacing the whole Campy free hub with a Shimano free hub. Inside the free hub body, where the axle goes through, is a 8 or 10mm hex fitting. If you break that loose and take off the freehub body you might just find that they are interchangeable. I won't have a chance to try this today, but maybe I can this weekend and I will let you know what I find out.

There is a gentleman in the Bitterroot Valley of Montana, in Hamilton, that has a beautiful restored Paramount that he got when he was alternate to the 1964(?) US Cycling team. I know that it is beautifully restore because I did the mechanical restoration and had a friend here in Wisconsin repaint it. What was cool about that was the hand painted striping was done by someone who used to do it for Schwinn back in the "old days."

I have my old warrior in my barn that I have been slowly bringing back to its original 1980's form - down tube shifters, tubular tires on Mavic hubs... I have no plans on racing it anymore (I have no plans on racing anymore period!)(But the best laid plans of mice and men...) I will, however, take it out for the occasional ride just because.

So if you are looking for someone to tell you to sell a part of your personal history and glory... wrong person! I would keep both, find a nice spot on the wall for the Paramount, find some old leather cycling shoes and a leather hairnet helmet and make a little shrine! Ride the Dolan as fast as you can. Go out and capture some of that old glory!

I will try to get back to you by the end of the weekend with that freehub answer. If you don't hear from me send me a reminder, please.

Tad