Obstruction on fly ball

Question
QUESTION: Obstruction rules (ASA, NFHS, several codes) do not allow a runner to be put out between the bases the runner was obstruction.  The rule makes no exception for the type of out.  So is there a difference between a tag out, a force out, and a fly out?

Situation: batter hits popup on infield near 1B. F1 obstructs B-R between home and 1B.  F3 then catches fly ball.  Now what?  

Are you going to call the B-R out?  Or protect her to 1B?
ANSWER: Hi Tom,

There are some situations where an obstructed runner who was going to make a base safely had there been no obstruction can be put out between bases, but that's not the issue in this question.

With obstruction the ball remains live. We are protecting the runner ONLY between the base (or plate) they left and the base the would have made if there had been no obstruction. We would not call this runner out between bases.

There are many situations where an obstructed runner is out because even though there was obstruction the runner would not have made the base safely.

An example would be r1 on 2nd leaving early on a fly ball that is caught, trying to return, is obstructed and in the judgement of the umpire would not have made the base had there been no obstruction before F4 received the ball w/ contact of 2nd (live ball appeal).  This runner is called out.

In this case, we have a delayed dead ball (as with all obstructions) so the ball remains live , is legally caught, the b-r is out and the obstruction nullified.

Mark

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Please clarify: you negated the caught fly ball because of obstruction and protected the B-R to 1B.  Correct?

You confused the issue by bringing in a different rule and situation. There are several exceptions to the "cannot be put out between the bases where obstructed."  A appeal for leaving too early is one of them (which has nothing to do with my original question).  You gave an ASA only answer; in NFHS rules a runner obstructed while trying to return to touch a base left too early is protected back to that base.  Other readers could be confused if you don't give a rule set.

Tom
ANSWER: Hi Tom,

My profile states a number of times I am an ASA umpire.  I do not answer questions about other orgs. but so there's no confusion what I wrote is strictly an ASA answer, I will put that on top of my last answer.

I stated in my 1st answer, we have a delayed dead ball (as with all obstructions) so the ball remains live , is legally caught, the b-r is out and the obstruction nullified.  

So the b-r is NOT protected to 1st base, they would not have safely made the base. The b-r was in no way disadvantaged by the obstruction. They are out and I call the catch with an out sign.  I don't think it's necessary to call time, say we had obstruction but we have a valid catch and the b-r is out.  If a coach wanted to discuss it, that's what I would tell them.


My intent in the other example (and it's just one that came to mind) was to state just because we have obstruction doesn't necessarily mean the runner will be awarded or be safe at any base.  It depends on the situation and the umpire's judgement on what base, if any, they would have reached had there not been obstruction.

Let's say on a long-long fly ball which is going to be caught the b-r is obstructed by F3 (which is more common than your example) as he rounds 1st heading to 2nd, would the b-r be entitled to any base? No, they would be out.  Everybody knows the b-r is out.  You umpire when you have to umpire.

Mark

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Let's say on a long-long fly ball which is going to be caught the b-r is obstructed by F3 (which is more common than your example) as he rounds 1st heading to 2nd, would the b-r be entitled to any base?
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Apples and oranges, Mark.  Your runner is no longer between the bases which she was put out.  No - it will not be common for my situation to occur.  I created it to specifically deal with the issue of the rule which states a runner CANNOT be put out between the bases obstructed.  That rule has some exceptions; none of which handles how a runner was put out.  

If runner is tagged, she cannot be put out.
If runner is forced, even though she would never have beat the force w/o obstruction, she cannot be put.
But if the out is by fly ball ? ? ? ? ?  

What specific rule or exception over-rides the "cannot be put out between ..... rule?

Tom

Answer
Hi Tom,

Well I was WRONG!  Sometimes umpires miss one and I missed this one.

After you're last post, I could see your point so I wrote a colleague of mine who is a national elite umpire, ISF, 2 NCAA women's world series championship final games and an outstanding state and national instructor.  Here's exactly what he said....

hi Mark,

In regards to your question.
This actually was asked by somebody else a few years and the answer I got was:
We do call obstruction and because it is a play being made on the batter between the bases they were obstructed.  Since we can't bring the batter back to the plate, we then would award 1st base.  What would happen if the ball was dropped and then picked up and thrown to 1st for an out.  We would still award the base.
Of course if it is called, just think of the argument we would have.  I don't think I have ever see it called.
Hope that helps.
Bryan

So that's the final and correct answer.  It was nice having this discussion with you.

Mark

Hi again Tom,

Well I thought we were done but I guess not.  It appears my original answer was correct.

"In this case, we have a delayed dead ball (as with all obstructions) so the ball remains live , is legally caught, the b-r is out and the obstruction nullified."

Bryan gave his answer but sent it to Kevin who is "Supervisor of umpires" on the ASA staff.  This is what ASA says

Bryan,

Very interesting question. I know this question has been proposed to Mary Struckhoff from the High School Federation and she has ruled on this for them. I sent this out to my staff and we all seem to agree.

Rule 8 Section 5 Runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out (B) states When a fielder not in possession of the ball or not in the act of fielding a batted a ball, obstructs the progress of a runner or batter runner legally running the bases. Penalty: The batter-runner or runner is awarded the base they would have reached if there had been no obstruction. The intent of the rule is to be able to award bases to runners or batter-runners when they are obstructed from getting to a base they would have reached without obstruction. It is not the rules intent to award a base to a batter-runner obstructed on a caught fly ball. In the case of a fly ball that is caught there is no base they would have reached had there been no obstruction. Common sense in this one overrules. The batter-runner would be out. By rule any time we have a ground ball and there is obstruction then we can not call a runner or batter-runner out between the bases they were obstructed.

Hope this helps


Kevin

So for ASA play this is the FINAL answer.

Mark