Walk off walk

Question
QUESTION: Dr. Ambrose,
On a topic dated 6/11/08, you stated that in a situation with bases loaded, winning run on third, two outs, and a base on balls awarded to the batter, if a runner (say, moving from first to second) does not properly touch the base to which they are advancing that they would be called out and the game would go into extra innings.  However, would this not be a dead ball appeal and a time play?  If the runner coming from third had touched homeplate before the appeal was made, wouldn't this run count?  I could certainly see if the runner from third hadn't touched home that the run would not count.  Upon first read of the topic, I agreed that your ruling made sense, but after reading other situations (namely a similar situation answered by Tom on 5/5/08), I wasn't sure.  Thank you in advance!

ANSWER: Hi kaitlyn,

I read tom's q&a  and the situations are different.  In tom's q R1 at 3rd and R2 at 1st, fly ball out for 2, R2 leaves early and R1 scores before the LBA at 1st.  As tom stated this is not a force out (as the batter did not become a b-r and R2 did not lose their right to occupy 1st base and simply left early) but rather a timing play and the run would count if scored before the LBA.  Live ball or dead ball appeal in this case would not change, the run scores.

My q&a dealt with bases loaded, 2 out, walk, R1 scores but R3 does not advance to 2nd and gets in line to shake hands and is now appealed. IMO  R3 was given ample time to complete their running assignment and that I would honor the appeal if I was still on the field and the infielders had not crossed the foul lines.

Due to the batter becoming b-r on the walk, R3 is now "forced" to 2nd (lost their right to occupy 1st) and must complete their running assignment.  ANYTIME the 3rd out of an inning is a force out the offense gets nothing.

Example bases loaded, 2 out and hr.  R3 misses 2nd, all runners score and R3 is now appealed.  How many runs does the offense get?  Zero...plus the hr would count against any hr limits.

OK?

mark

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Actually, the situation of Tom's to which I was referring was
"Bottom of the ninth with a runner on 3rd base and the game is tied. The batter has a full count on her.  The next pitch is a wild pitch for ball four but it allow the winning run to cross the plate.  The batter that walked never went to first, should she have?"

But your conclusion that there is an apparent "force" is answer enough.  And the situation you presented about the homerun is very interesting.  I'll have to remember that one.  Of course, everyone at first glance would think that two runs scored ahead of her.  Thank you!

Answer
Hi again Kaitlyn,

I want people who ask questions to understand the rules of softball so that's what I try to give.  In real life I would most likely be off the field by then so no appeal would be possible, plus one of us would have to see it.

As far as Tom's answer that confused you I disagree with it if there are 2 outs.  The OP does not tell us how many outs there are and if there are less than 2 it is correct.  Please read "a" carefully.  When a b-r does not safely advance to 1st w/2 outs no run can score.

ASA 5-5-b no run shall score if the 3rd out of an inning is the result of
1. a b-r being called out prior to reaching 1st base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a b-r.

ASA casebook play 8.6-1

n a FP game, bottom of the 10th inning, two outs, tie score, with R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B. B4 draws a walk. (a) B4 fails to go to 1B and instead enters his team area, although all other runners advance one base.

(b) R3 does not advance to 2B and instead walks off the field, although all other runners and the batter do advance one base. Are these appeal plays, or should the umpire call the infractions when he sees them?

Ruling: When a walk is issued, all runners, including the batter, must touch all bases awarded. Therefore, in (a) as soon as B4 enters his team's area, he should be called out by the umpire. Because the out occurred before the BR reached 1B, it results in a force out. Since the third out is the result of a force out, no run can score on the play.

In (b) as soon as the runner from 1B leaves the field of play or enters his team area, he should be called out by the umpire. This is also a force and no runs will score. In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field of play.

Mark