Missing a base / force out ?

Question
QUESTION: Hi Dr. Mark,

ASA slow pitch question.

We have a runner on 3B...with 2 outs.  The next batter hits a hard gapper to the outfield & he runs to 3B.  However, the batter missed 1B while running the bases.  It was properly appealed and the ump agreed that the runner missed 1B...so we have an out.

The question is....does the runner that started on 3B count as a run-scored ??  Since the batter was forced to touch 1B is this consided a force-out (thereby no run counts).  What if the runner missed 2B...which he was not forced to touch.  Would the run count then ?

Thanks again,

Russ

ANSWER: Hi Russell,

ANYTIME a b-r does not safely achieve 1st no run can score. In umpire talk and rules it's not "technically" a "force out" but it's result is the same (and no I don't want to get into why it's not a force out, it's not important). In this case where the b-r misses 1st, they have not safely achieved it upon appeal, no run.

Misses 2nd (or 3rd), yes the run counts.

Mark



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I guess I am still a bit confused as to why this is not considered a force out (runner missing first base while headed to 3B).  I've poked around the ASA slow-pitch rule book and found this...rule 8 section 7...G.  I interpret this as saying any runner or runner batter which is forced to touch a base (but misses it ...and called out upon appeal) results in a force out.  I then conclude if this happens on the 3rd out...then no runs would count.  If the runner/batter is not forced - I get it - all runs in front of the offender count, since the appeal is after the fact.
Just trying to get this straight !

Thanks again,

Russell

Answer
Hi Russ,

see you're going to make me talk about this.  Don't get confused about the out at 1st.  We treat it exactly like a force out but by def (see below) it's not one.  Sometimes we call it an undefined force out.  Some of the rule book is a little sloppy  (IE 8-2-m4)  The important rule is 5-5b.

FORCE OUT: Is an out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the
base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner,
and before the batter-runner or a trailing runner has been put out.

5-5B No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other
runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

Mark