Layout or me?

Question
QUESTION: I've recently returned to bowling after a long time away (25+ years#, I'm 56 years old and have spent long hours trying to get current with all the changes the sport has made since then, especially in ball design and layouts.  Way back when, I used to bowl down #second arrow)and in with minimal hook and a conventional grip.  After returning to the sport recently, I've gone to fingertip grip and more centered in the approach, bowling over the 3rd arrow (conditions permitting# to the 1-3 pocket.  The house I've been bowling in is notorious for slick/oily lanes so the ball I purchased to deal with it was the Brunswick C System 3.5 #16lb).  When I had the ball drilled I was going on the assumption that the pro shop would handle everything "professionally", the fitting went well and when questioned about how I wanted the ball to react I handed him a printout of the Brunswick Asymmetrical Layout #1 for Maximum Hook. Basically I got a disgusted look from the guy and he drilled the ball the way he saw fit.  I was still in the learning curve on ball layouts and a PAP was never mentioned or discussed, so I gave in to the "professionals" intrusion on my wishes assuming he knew better about these things than I and my layout sheet was waded up and thrown away for me without my request.  My hook was and is still evolving, so with every change I realize my PAP is changing too.  Then ball has since been plugged and redrilled once by another shop who watched me bowl and got my PAP ... the ball did improve a little.  However, I've watched videos online of people with slower rev rates than I, getting way more hook than I've ever gotten with this ball even on drier lanes at another house!  So what gives, are these drillers not unleashing the full potential of this ball or is it just me?  I can't go any slower with this ball to make it "bite", all the stops and limitations need to be taken off this ball, because if it hooks too much, I've got all kinds of speed to put on it to straighten it out.  Current dual angle layout on this ball is 65 x 5 1/2 x 75 my PAP is 5 1/2 and 3/4 up.

ANSWER: Calvin,
Not sure where to start. Lets start with the end, the layout numbers you mention aren't strong. What was the layout initially? I'd guess that the layout (65 x 5.5 x 75) is trying to help get the ball down the lane, but with a rolly backend reaction. It suggests that you may have to much ball speed. What kind of ball did you roll 25 years ago? Did you pick the 3.5 or was it a ball you discussed with the driller?

But without knowing ANYTHING about you, and knowing something of the 3.5, drilling a strong ball with a very strong layout is a very tough call. A strong ball on even a medium lane could, WOULD very likely roll out (look like its not hooking).

Your driller would want to know that you don't turn the ball much at all (which seems like what you're saying) or you roll it very fast (not sure if that's the case, but it sounds like you have ball speed to burn) to go with a maximum layout. Did you talk about your skills with the driller?

When you don't know very much about layouts and are getting back in the game after 25 years, can you see where giving a driller a layout may suggest to them that you don't trust their judgement or you are second guessing their abilities?

I assume the "professional" reference is a shot at a guy who ONLY wins if he can get a player who was not very good 25 years ago to strike at will because they bought a bowling ball! If the ball fails, the driller failed, the ball failed, the lanes suck and the sun got in your eyes!

Maybe the poor sap IS a professional and he was trying to help someone who most likely was throwing a three piece ball 25 years ago, and getting a couple boards of hook (not bad back in the day when someone who could stay clean averaged 190+ and was considered a good bowler).

If you suggested the layout and the ball rolled out every where, wouldn't you assume bad ball or bad driller? Or better scenario, what if it did hook a LOT. What would you do with 25 boards of hook? What spares (splits) would you leave? What did you expect out of the very strong layout?

Initially, you've been set up to be disappointed. After a long layoff, any change will take some time to get comfortable with. But, you've changed the grip (to a finger tip) and changed where you are playing on the lane, the only other ingredient that could completely screw you up is a ball weight change. Overcoming one change is hard, two tedious and longer term, three almost impossible without coaching and about a year of getting used to everything all over again.

Going into what you are doing, I would have warned that the changes absolutely will have your average go down before it goes up.

I'd suggest that the first guy should have gotten your PAP, but if you bowl in the house where his store is, he may know a lot about the lane conditions and sought to help the ball circumvent what he knows is likely to happen on the lanes there (if a rough cover with a strong layout is rolled down 2nd arrow, because you know you'd give old second arrow a try!).

What kind of trial did you give this ball between first drilling and redrill? What was your expectation? You mentioned videos, you saw slower rev rates? or slower ball speed? A strong ball should never go near a dry lane, unless you are trying to roll the ball out.

Without seeing you bowl, I can only guess what might be going on. But, I must repeat "There are NO magic bowling balls." If you couldn't hook the ball 25 years ago, the best ball on the planet won't hook if you don't "hook it". Without some degree of axis rotation and axis tilt, a ball, any ball, EVERY ball, will go straight.

From what little you've said, I'd suggest some of the following is happening: you roll the ball fast, and can't turn it much at the point of release, you are playing too far inside (get back out to 2nd arrow or further out), the cover is too rough and too strong and all the energy of your shot is gone long before the ball gets far enough down the lane (or the cover is too smooth and the ball skids all the way down the lane), your layout isn't strong enough to slow the ball down, start trying to rough up the surface to get it to slow down about 35 feet down the lane, your new grip is still very new and you are NOT rolling the ball very consistently YET, you saw the 3.5 on TV and want to know why yours doesn't do what you saw a highly skilled, heavily practiced professional do with his, and finally the people who drilled it missed something and it's not working as it could.

Without much more information, I can't tell you if the drillers screwed up or it's operator error! Throw the ball at what ever speed is the easiest for you to duplicate, and adjust the ball from there.
Thanks for the questions, please let me know more.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION:   I used a AMF ball 25 years ago it has no other name on it, just a dull black 16 lb ball. Typically I bowled up the ten board from the foul line and hooked the ball 6-8 boards to the pocket.  I bowled on a few leagues with co-workers when I was in my late teens and early 20's, average was around 170-180, so I guess I wasn't classed as a good bowler back then.  Bowled a score of 245 at 16 years old, then while in the Navy, on base with a house ball, I bowled a 256 while in my 30's after not touching a ball in 10 years or more.
 I picked the 3.5 myself (purchased online) after researching balls for a month or so, then had the first drilling done near my home.  The first driller was told where I was going to be bowling and it was not the lanes by his shop.  He had heard the lanes where I was going to bowl were slick and mentioned that I had the right ball to do the job.  Also told him that I hadn't bowled in a lot of years and was changing from conventional grip to fingertip grip and also would be working on developing more revs for the hook I was after.  The "professional" reference was more of a question that has yet to be answered as to whether or not it applies in this case.
 I'm not sure what the original layout was on the 3.5, just remember the second driller did write it down on my fitting/layout sheet, saying it was weak and the Pin to PAP, once a PAP was finally established, was 6 1/2".  The reaction I was looking for was setting the ball down at the foul line around the 20-15 boards to a breakpoint between the 12-1 boards (depending on conditions) and back to the pocket.
 I bowled in a summer league with the 3.5 and it ran off the back of the lane into the pit any time I tried to hook it, continuing to spin but rarely breaking left more than 5 boards.  So in order to get the ball to the pocket, I was setting the ball down near the 10-5 boards throwing it at the pocket like a spare ball, hot and straight.  My average started in the 170's and by end of the season that was down to the 140's.  I've changed the surface on the ball from 500 grit, 1000 grit, 4000 grit (original finish) and even tried polish, even though that seemed to be the opposite of what was needed (did increase my revs a little).  After all these changes I've not seen a distinct breakpoint at any time with this ball and I've never seen any axis migration toward the pocket.  It just spins like a clock running backwards until it slides off the lane.  The ball was redrilled after the season was over.  I know my revs are lower than most right now but they're faster than some (if I had to guess, around 275-300 rpm).  I definitely have faster revs than this guy (one of the videos I was talking about),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCoBn_aPYwc
... but I've never got the reaction he gets, even when I have slower ball speed.
 So the question is ... how much contribution should this ball be making to my hooking ability?  With the little information you have in this situation, how would you drill this ball?  

Answer
Calvin,
You are going from a basic three piece ball (most likely rubber) to a high tech, high performance ball. A little akin to jumping from a bow and arrow to a rocket launcher. Your game used to be built around straight and consistent, now you want to grab the gusto and move in and swing the ball like the kids. Your desire to do what you've described should have been meet with, "I'm not sure we can get you that much reaction".

With a lower rev rate, and decent PAP, your ball speed must be causing some of the problem. Any idea where you are in that department? How long a pin to Center of Gravity (CG) does the ball have? And what was the top weight before drilling (should be on the box)?

I'd suggest that the drillers didn't try to utilize the asymmetric core by giving you a very strong pin position to maximize the flare potential. But as I said before drilling a strong ball strong seldom works out without specific information on your game, the lane conditions and some idea what you've done with other equipment. They guess-timmated to the lesser.

You mentioned improved ball reaction with the new layout. What surface did it have when you got the improved reaction? 500? Get the pin to a leverage position, you can definitely use the core help. Can you send a picture of the layout?

The player on the video is 5 1/2 over and 3/8 up (similar to you), but you mention faster revs, does the ball spin faster? or does it get down the lane faster? The video also shows a very rolly layout that seems to be going right around third arrow. Would that work for you? Does the ball go from foul line to head pin in less than three seconds?

Without knowing the top weight and distance to CG, a layout with the Mass Bias on your Vertical Axis line (or past it) like the one in the video, may not be possible (can't make it legal) if there is too much top weight and/or a short pin to CG. A variation on what's on the ball in the video might work for you, but the elements of top weight and pin to CG are crucial, that's why buying online doesn't necessarily get the details needed for specific layouts.

Thanks for the follow up. Please provide some more details maybe a picture and I can suggest a layout, WITHOUT SEEING YOU BOWL, normally a very bad idea.