Lateral pitch

Question
QUESTION: I have recently started to bowl again after not for 6 years. When I used to bowl a lot, about 90% of my effort went into throwing the ball, without having the ball slip out of my hand, and to find a comfortable way to hold the ball. Despite bowling several times a week, reading the books, taping myself, even getting a coach once, I never could break out of 180s average. Every shot I had to hope my thumb would not slip, and 95% of time I could only turn ball with fingers, not wrist.

As I just go into bowling, I can not go through that again, I'd rather not bowl.

My span is 4 /18 to middle finger
And 4 /14 to ring finger.

I always used to have 1/8 reverse pitch (the pro-shop guys just drilled it like that), but have recently had old balls drilled with 3/8 and 1/8 forward pitch.

Before this, I would hold just about all the weight on the side of my thumb next to the index finger (inside part of hand - saying right or left may be confusing), and only over the lower part of the bad. But a lot of pressure and pain on the inside side of my thumb.

The forward pitch has helped a lot. My thumb is a little less than 2 inches, and from reading online, that most likely need more support. With 3/8 forward I have to grip to tight, 1/8 forward seems to be the sweet spot Now I hold the ball still mostly on that right side, but with a lot of support also on the bottom part of thumb (the non-pad part).

The outside part of thumb does not support weight at all. I had another ball drilled with thumb 3/8 lateral. That has helped a little. I'm still holding ball on the right side only, but over a larger area. Doing test I read about online, where I wrap fingers and thumb around left wrist or coke bottle, my thumb does not point to even index finger. And even looking at thumb angle before it goes in thumb hole, it looks like naturally the thumb wants to point with a lot more lateral pitch.

Sorry if this is a long post, but questions:
Is is unheard of to go with lateral pitch much more than 3/8? (after so many pro-shops, I finally have someone who will listen and work with me, and I feel like the 3/8s needs to be doubled, or more)

And this may sound silly, but it's seems that the whole thumb (left and right side, pad and bottom part) should support ball, allowing a relaxed grip? I never experienced anything like that. Are there cases where very large amounts of lateral pitch are needed to have that effect?

Thank you

ANSWER: Saul,
So I understand, your middle finger is 4 1/8, ring 4 1/4 (assuming right handed) and current thumb pitches are 3/8 left lateral and 1/8 forward? You have a short thumb, is it also dry/slick?

The 3/8 forward in the thumb actually would have you grip less but the thumb angle might be too much, that's why it was a problem. Do you feel your hand is stiff, fairly flexible or very flexible?

Since all the angles in a fit need to work together, please send back details of the finger pitches (lateral and forward/0/away), hole sizes, etc. Your hand sounds to be up off the ball and the finger pitches may be the issue.

I've used more than 3/8 lateral at one point, it's certainly not outside the realm of possibilities. Seating the thumb solidly, and feeling the ball solidly in your hand is about the finger angles. To many drillers/bowlers focus too much on the thumb feel, when the ball needs to exit the thumb cleanly in order to maximize hand action at delivery. The easier the ball slips off the thumb, without feeling out-of-control, the easier it is to execute the delivery. The ball should just hang in your hand, but having it easily and quickly release the thumb allowing the hand to rotate to the side of the ball with little or no effort makes for much easier deliveries and consistent shots.

The ball should rest on the pads of the fingers and the pad of the thumb. If you feel it at the sides of the thumb, your thumb hole may need to be made more oval at the broadest points of the knuckle. Please forward the specifics (include a picture of your fit sheet if you have it). Thanks for the questions. I look forward to hearing back from you.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: thanks, all the specs
Right handed
Middle finger 11/16, 4 1/8 span
Ring finger 5/8, 4 1/4 span
Grips are with 1/4 forward pitch, and I do much better with the softer grips, otherwise my fingers don't support the ball so much
Thumb width is 15/16
My track is very high, bordering, and sometimes going slightly over thumb hole.

Balls: I've been having my old stuff re-drilled. I have
15 lbs - 0 lateral left pitch, 1/8 forward (this is ok)
15 lbs - 3/8 forward, 3/ 8 lateral left, I get hung up in this (which may have a lot to do with the very wide/rounded bevel around thumb. I've noticed the best feels are by far with sharp bevels)
Older ball still with 1/8 reverse, 0 lateral.

And something I got as an experiment this summer, 13 lb ball
0 lateral pitch, 3/8 forward (first ball I did with forward pitch)

Thumb - I'm not exactly sure how to say if my thumb is flexible or not, but I would very much guess it is not. It doesn't easy bend backwards.

After a few shots - skin is dry, and ball can easily get stuck on it.

Of any ball I ever used, the 13 lb ball is by leaps and bounds the best.

I tried something new last night - using the tape that stick on the thumb, instead of into the ball, and wrapped on back, and front of thumb. That with the 13 lb ball, gave me for the 1st time ever, a relaxed feeling, that I could only onto the ball effortlessly, no need to grip it. It did just hang. This was the only time I bowled ever, where I used zero effort to hole onto the ball. How tacky my thumb feels is a whole another variable, and I'm amazed how much that tape took it out of the equation.

Basically, it felt like all these thumb problems where gone, with tape and lighter weight. Not that the fit is perfect, but it takes so much pressure off some spots on thumb. A minor feel issue, is a huge problem with 15 lbs, doesn't matter with 13. Only issue was tendency to launch ball up with 3/8 forward, so forces me even more to have relaxed grip. Tape made feel on the 15 lsb ball, with 1/8 forward much better as well. But 13 lb feels better, and I turn the ball with wrist, as supposed to a more finger feel with heavier ball.

btw, I'm 5 foot 8, and 155 lbs.

13 lbs is too light, I did it just as an experiment and it was a used ball that didn't cost anything to get drilled. But I think now I should drop to 14 lbs.
And at this point, I'll get that, with thumb holes I can switch, And play around with pitch from 0 - 3/8 forward, and also lateral.

Anyway, thanks, I really appreciate getting such a detailed reply so quickly.

ANSWER: Saul,
Not seeing the lateral finger pitches, but from your description of your roll I'd assume 3/8 - 3/8 or 1/2 - 1/2 standard stuff from 20-25 years ago.

Couple things not making sense: Dry hand should have the ball fly off your hand especially since you have a short thumb. But you mention the ball gets stuck. I can only assume that you grip this ball relentlessly. The lighter ball is easier to control because you are, in fact, controlling it DRAMATICALLY, just not as much as the heavier balls.

If I was drilling a fingertip grip with 4 1/8 and 4 1/4 spans, I'd never suggest pitched grips, and if you insisted, I'd pitch the hole away so the resulting pitch is 0, the average size/flexibility hand would use 0 reverse pitch. Your dry hand and short thumb would require an adjustment to 1/8 or maybe 1/4 forward (lateral pitch would effect the roll of the ball). The lateral you like is helping you exit the ball.  The size of the fingers versus the size of the thumb reveal a broad knuckle "bowlers" thumb (not a good thing, years of squeezing). If the thumb hole reflects a broad knuckle, the sides are tight but front to back on the hole might be very sloppy unless you tape it appropriately (I use up to 7 pieces of various sizes, I had a very crappy fit when I was first drilled a fingertip at age 15 - 40+ years ago).

You experience the relaxed feel in the 13lb ball (lighter than you're used to) because you got away with needing to grip less, so the feel was less effort not NO EFFORT. Taping your thumb up made it so slick that even if you gripped the ball it afforded the thumb the chance to exit somewhat appropriately to your swing.

But it sounds like your hand is stiff (Look at the hand, eye level, keep fingers horizontal and press the thumb, what angle do you see? 90 degrees? less? more? how much more? 120 degrees?

Getting switch grips with various pitches, will only facilitate continued confusion with your fit. I'd play with the light ball for 100 games. If after a significant trial, the ball is releasing where you need it to, your modification of your thumb (making it even slicker) can continue, or you can alter the thumb slightly. Your fit isn't great, but you are so motivated to knock down pins that you can't wait to buy something else and move on.

You're throwing so many things at your game that you are not allowing yourself to become comfortable with any one adjustment. Changing muscle memory takes hundreds, if not thousands of shots. Multiple fit changes, while it seems like you're fixing problems, is adding changes to what's comfortable/familiar (even if comfortable isn't).

Fly to Chicago. I'll get your grip fixed. We can look at your game, your equipment and save you the frustration of spending a year trying dozens of things. Thanks for the questions. Take it slow, your game evolves as your fit evolves. Good luck.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Lateral finger pitch - yea, I don't know what they are. No ball driller ever discussed it with me (and I've had many ball drillers).

Thumb - I didn't write clearly, it's very tacky.

I will take your advice about bowling 100 games with the lighter ball. It's not perfect but the lighter weight and forward pitch forces me to relax swing and grip.

Do the pitched grips cause one to squeeze grip with shorter span? I can try grips that aren't pitched (I do have a lot more feel for ball with the soft pitch grips, compared to harder ones). I've always had pitched grips. My friends with shorter spans had pitched grips, and none of us ever had a pro-shop guy actually look at our hands and customize anything besides the span. Pitch grips seem to be the default people get no matter what the span.

I'll tell you this, if I stay stuck with this, I'll try to get out to Chicago this summer. If I knew about you 10 years ago when I was able to, I would have been on a plane the next day. In 17 years of poor fits, it's a rarity to have someone even listen to problems with a ball drilling, much less know what to do about it.

Answer
Saul,
Pitched grips are just an option. The friction generated from pitched grips when a ball unwraps from your fingers makes it feel like a bowler is really getting a "handful" at the point of release.

Unfortunately, the point of delivery is often uphit, which on soft House shots doesn't punish the player, but on tougher flatter patterns the earlier roll translates to less consistency down lane and a squirrelly "look"/reaction.

Shops often sell what they get demand for, or have a personal preference for. Carrying even a new color in a finger grip style means potentially hundreds of dollars of inventory. Bare bones stores may only have limited inventory because they don't want to stock something that might take awhile to turn. Thanks again for the positive comments. Good luck and good bowling.